Home: Topics of Interest: WONDERFUL | IMPORTANT | CONTROVERSIAL
OK--no personal URL's or e-mails unless anyone specifically
wants theirs mentioned. Also, it will mainly be for special topics. It
takes time to put together a complete subject. I've recently had a
couple of interesting e-mails come in (and answers out) so the easiest
way to get around this is with a page like this. Messages may be edited.
Also, any interesting topics will be linked here: Heaven's Gate 1 ; Wednesday Crucifixion? ; Heaven's Gate 2 ; Is Satan a UFO? ; Rationalist Association of New
South Wales, & Athiest Association of America ; John Keel: Operation Trojan Horse
; Oiuja boards, mediums ; Ashtar, Ashtaroth
From Melissa, Thu, 27 Mar 1997.
Any idea what is going on? I`ve been on the net for a while and this is not a shook but never heard of this group before.Got a good answer from Mark in NC who said he knows of the coming but must not have been on the next level to get the message. Missy
just a quick reply. Here are two possible answers depending on which way you meant the question.
A. A very dangerous move or change in tactics by the enemy. The old tactics may still be there. Step one was to give prophecies and have the people caught up in giving dates events etc that would not come to pass and leave the adherents in derision or humiliation. A simple example of this is the Danish cult mentioned in Psychic Roulette (and put in my tract). The tactic of the enemy appears now to be have people actually TAKE THEIR LIVES!!! That is a final move that is pretty well irreversible. AND it doesn't give the unfortunate people caught up in the delusion another chance to sort their lives out. That is very sad and appears to be why the enemy is doing it.
B. Heaven's Gate. Same old lie. This one
has worked for the enemy for the last 6000 years. It's just been
tailored a little bit here and there. The tell-tale marks of the enemy
himself. SATAN. The very first lie recorded is:
There it is. Clear as crystal. These people were led to
believe a lie, THAT:
The two lies are tied together. They go hand in hand.
It is also sad that so many christians believe a similar
teaching. That the doorway to heaven is death. That at death we go
immediately to our reward (whether that be heaven or hell).
Note John 11:23,24 "Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
The christian's hope is in the resurrection and glorious
appearing of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ:
Also consider the following verses:
Matthew 22:31, 32 "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
Note the last verses!!! The DOOR is JESUS, not DEATH. JESUS
came to give LIFE. Who comes to give death? The thief (SATAN) comes to
steal, and to KILL, and to destroy, that is: for DEATH.
--just some thoughts there.
[Goto Heaven's Gate 2]
From dlester, Sat, 12 Apr 1997.
We are in total agreement on
the biblical Sabbath day. Only the deceived keep Sunday, or one of
satan's children. However, I must point out an
thank you for your letter and am glad that you agree on the biblical seventh day sabbath. The rest of your letter is a little puzzling. I had heard of this belief in Jesus being killed on Wednesday, but you are the first person to write to me about it. I have some material at home about this and I have not quite got to the end of it yet. However, I have probably looked into this enough so far to answer your letter.
Ignoring the preparation day part (this has been answered by other people and will be part of a general response page -- this topic is worth following up), I am going to concentrate here on the part "figuring three days and nights into Good Friday till Sunday" as you put it.
The whole point is, you don't have to. The Bible nowhere says
that Jesus was in the grave for three days and three nights. It does
So there it is. What the Bible actually says is that Jesus
would go to Jerusalem (there's a clue as to what the heart of the earth
might mean), be rejected of the elders and chief priests, be delivered
to the gentiles and suffer (be scourged etc) and be crucified and die
and then he would rise on the third day.
Very well, let's count back from very early on Sunday morning
(the first day of the week) when it began to dawn (See Matthew
28:1-4)-- this was the time of the resurrection. This time cannot be
denied. It happened at dawn on Sunday according to the Word of the
Living God. IT IS AFTER THE NIGHT PART OF THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK.
COUNTING BACK THREE NIGHTS TAKES US TO THURSDAY, NOT WEDNESDAY.
Remember, Matthew 27:46-50 tells us that Jesus died at the ninth hour
of the day. This is during the light part of the day.
| WED | THU | FRI | SAT | SUN | end line 1
***See note below*** [Goto Corrected Diagram below]
The first star represents the "death" of Jesus on Wednesday
Well, what else could I say?
NOTE: I have received a reply telling me that the resurrection should more correctly be before sunrise on Sunday:
Received from Delwin Lester, Tue, 22 Apr 1997.
I am a bit concerned in your understanding of an Israelite society, and
I think you have an interesting point on the actual time of
the resurrection. I went away wondering if anyone was going to respond
to what I had put together.
Thanks for the comments. I have learned a lot this week about this.
kind regards and
Let's check all this. The Gospel accounts are as follows:
From these accounts it appears that the resurrection happened as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, while it was yet dark. So we will move the second star for the resurrection to just before the daylight part of Sunday. Remember though, it was at the end of the night. That is the important part and this minor correction still does not detract from the rest of the study. Jesus still would have been in the grave for 4 NIGHTS from a Wednesday crucifixion. That was the main point we were considering. Corrected diagram follows:
| WED | THU | FRI | SAT | SUN | end line 1
Another reply from the Lesters:
From Delwin Lester
Saturday. This makes it only three nights. If you are buried at or near
sunset, then 72 hours later is at or near sunset! You have succumb to
the same error of most of the world. You have accepted the lie of the
Catholic church, and now you are trying to prove the Sunday morning. You
are starting from a false premise. You now see how satan has deceived
the world in so many ways. He uses subtle twisting and removing from
context of the time. The morning sunrise is a throw back to the sun
worship of ancient Rome and before. This is exactly what the day means
They would rise before dawn and face East and give honor to the rising
sun. In the newly forming Roman Catholic church, they wanted to "please"
these people, so an amalgamation was created between "Christian" and
pagan. This is an abomination to God.
Ezekiel 8: (13-18 quoted)
Much is written concernig this creation. History is extant about the
goddess Ishtar or Astarte, pronounced Easter in modern English. Simply
look up Easter in a good encyclopedia or, for the confession, go to the
Catholic Encyclopedia. They convict themselves. If a university is at
hand, I recommend there resources:
The Two Babylons, by Alexander Hislop
Wed Thrus Fri Sat 72 hours laterHowever, if one dosen't think Wednesday was the death, then the
resurrection is still at or near sunset. Pick a day! It CANNOT be early
morning or late at night and be three days and nights. But, the Marys
came to the tomb on the first day of the week and they where Jewish.
This only leaves Wednesday, 31 A.D.
Always remember the bible was written by Jews (Israelites), and it has
to be understood from that society's point of veiw and time.
Rev. 12: (verse 9 quoted)
God's Kingdom Come,
Sorry, but it is you that have missed the point. I did not refer to the Catholic Church, but the Bible, the Word of the living God. It is VERY clear from Matthew 28:1-4 that the resurrection took place at dawn on Sunday morning (the first day of the week).
Note also Matthew 27:63,64:
This verse says that the sepulchre was to be made sure until the third day. Cleopas (Luke 24:20-12) stated that (on the first day of the week):
"But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done."
That is, that the first day of the week (not the seventh) was the third day.
Further look at Matthew 28:1-4 closely:
MATTHEW 28:1-4 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
The sepulchre was to be made sure until the third day. The
soldiers were there until the resurrection. The stone was in place
until the resurrection. The angel of the Lord came down to roll away
the stone for Jesus to come forth out of the tomb.
Why not believe the Bible for what it says. I am not quoting
the Catholic Church on this, but the Bible.
From: Delwin Lester
after the earthquake. The stone had to be moved so the humans could see
for themselves that Christ "had risen". I have never seen a verse that
says Jesus came forth after the stone was removed. Your words, "The
angel of the Lord came down to roll away the stone for Jesus to come
out of the tomb", are not in the bible! As the bible states, the women
came near dawn and saw an EMPTY tomb. The angel moved the stone so they
could be wittnesses to this fact.
Neither am I quoting the Catholic Church, when it comes to the bible
(Remember I'm Jewish). I was attempting to get you to see where this
belief came from. Christ did not need the stone moved for his exit. He
is a spirit being and can and DID walk though walls. Remember
his appearing to the disciples when the door was locked. The fact
remains; 72 hours after a sunset or near sunset burial is at or near
sunset. In Jewish time keeping, this would be the third day.
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly;
so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of
Heart comes from the Greek word (kardia) meaning central or inmost
part, even though inanimate.
Earth comes from (ge) meaning land or the earth.
I believe Christ spoke the truth about 3 days and 3 nights, so this
only leaves 72 hours after He went into the tomb. Rising in the morning
would be 12 hours off, either way.
Early in the morning, if I came to your house and found you gone, would
I know if you left that morning or evening before? Even if your
neighbor opened the door to show me you where gone, I would not know.
However, Christ gave a sign when He would leave the tomb. 72 hours. No
more, no less.
Till The Eternal Comes,
tit for tat.
I have other topics to move on to. We have pretty well covered
this one as much as it needs. The full answer is now on my Topics page.
[*this was a minor mistake--it is on the Sabbath day Page--SB (2011
correction: all material now on Topics page)]
Delwin replies:You must be ignoring the verses I put in. They clearly state what Christ
said,"three days and three nights". Seventy-two hours after an evening
burial is an evening resurrection. Let me see if I have you right.
Rising from the dead, healing blind, feeding thousands, raising others
from dead, walking on water, ascending on a cloud, and, by the way,
being the son of God, but walking through a wall is poor! Was He not
raised a spirit being?
Please read how the Catholic Chruch started the Easter and Good Friday
traditions. It is the same way they started Sunday. (Christmas too!)
4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye
shall proclaim in their seasons.
5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S
6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened
bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no
servile work therein.
8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days:
in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work
This is the high sabbath referred in John 19:31. Then friday was a day
the women could buy and work. Then rested on Sabbath (Saturday). These
are the three days and nights.
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so
shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the
9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day?
3 x 12= 36 (3 days) + 3 x 12= 36 (3 nights) 36 + 36= 72 hours
[some other verses referred to from Matthew 15; Mark 7; Colossians 2;
Revelation 2; 3; 12; & 14.]
Till Jesus Returns,
Anyway, think about it. I don't want this to drag on. I have other things I need to attend to. This topic on the Wednesday Crucifixion, to my thinking, has been covered. I do thank you for bringing it to my attention, and yes, some of the points you raised have helped me in my understanding of this view. But we obviously have to differ in our beliefs. That is my prerogative (and yours).
Next letter follows:
From dcecil Fri, 18 Apr 97.
hey, I never said that Satan was a UFO (curious) BUT
Think this one through:
Why are so many people being fed the lie that when a person
dies they are not really dead but somewhere else
If the Bible says that the "Dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING" then who is lying??
The first lie was all about this--recorded in the Bible
People are willing to believe that lie. A whole group of people just took their lives because of this.
This is no laughing matter.
anyway, I'd better end this reply.
There is something out there.
See Isaiah Chapter 53.
something to chew over.
From amanda martinez
Hi I was just reading the topic on UFOS and the bible and it was really interesting. I have to do a debate on life on other planets or UFOS do you have other information you can send me please. Thanyou
I got hold of another copy of John Keel's book "UFOs Operation Trojan Horse" and started going through it again looking for any revealing quotes. I found them. I also haven't had time to pursue this for a while. But the main quote I found (of quite a few) was that the same powers behind demons and the occult appear to be working behind the UFO phenomenon. That from John Keel. I'll get you the proper quote over the weekend. (I have the book at home). More John Keel
That said--we are working here against a spiritual confederacy of higher created beings who have supernatural power and intelligence of many thousands of years. Their plan is to deceive people and lead them astray. The Bible refers to these intelligent beings as Satan and his fallen angels. They will speak through people (when they want to) and answer questions. They have the power to materialise objects and move them around the sky defying all known laws of nature. Hard objects have been materialised for short periods of time just to try to convince people that they are real. Bullets have been fired at them and bounced off.
The only defense against these hidden intelligent malevalent
powers is to join the other side.
A good book to read that covers most of this controversy is
"The Story of Redemption" by Ellen G. White.
Reply sent: 19/11/97
I completely forgot about your letter over the weekend. I found my copy of John Keel's book and had a look at it today. There appears to be a wealth of information in it that is really very clear to the Christian viewpoint (though I do not completely agree with John's thoughts on the Bible). Many people who get caught up in the UFO phenomenon must be unaware that the Bible has so much to say about these things. Here's some gems from John's book:
The following from John Keel, UFOs: Operation Trojan Horse.
The statistical data which I have extracted, and which I have tried to summarize briefly here, indicate that flying saucers are not stable machines requiring fuel, maintenance, and logistical support. They are, in all probability, transmogrifications of energy and do not exist in the same way that this book exists. They are not permanent constructions of matter. p. 182.
The endless messages from the space people would now fill a library, and while the communicators claim to represent some other world, the contents of those messages are identical to the messages long received by mediums and mystics. p. 183.
UFO events seem to occur century after century in the same geographical locations. A majority of these events took place on Wednesdays and Saturdays and were concentrated around the hours of 6 P.M., 8 P.M., and 10 P.M. These facts in themselves are proof that the phenomenon is guided by an intelligence and that the individual events form part of a larger plan. p. 195.
Thousands of mediums, psychics, and UFO contactees have been receiving mountains of messages from "Ashtar" in recent years. Mr. Ashtar represents himself as a leader in the great intergalactic councils which hold regular meetings on Jupiter, Venus, Saturn, and many planets unknown to us. But Ashtar is not a new arrival. Variations of this name, such as Ashtaroth, Ashar, Asharoth, etc., appear in demonological literature throughout history, both in the Orient and the Occident. Mr. Ashtar has been around a very long time, posing as assorted gods and demons and now, in the modern phase, as another glorious spaceman. p. 230.
I cannot even begin to review all of the occult evidence here, but there are dozens of excellent books available covering the whole spectrum of spiritual events. If you take the time and trouble to examine some of the better literature, you will find precise parallels and correlations with the UFO phenomenon. It appears that the same forces are at work in both situations, the same patterns prevail (particularly the hoax patterns), and the same underlying purposes seem to be present. p. 235.
(John comments about a prophecy of a
holocaust on December 24, 1967) ..
Many predictions of the December twenty-fourth disaster had been documented well in advance of that date. These messages came through in many different countries, from people who had no knowledge of or communication with one another. The UFO contactees received the same identical messages as the trance mediums communing with spirits. A link had been established. It was now clear (to me anyway) that all of these people were tuned into a central source. My earlier speculations seemed true--the UFO entities and the spirit entities were part of the same gigantic system. .. Some of the entities were evil liars. p. 283. Comment added by John Keel.
The UFO manifestations seem to be, by and large, merely minor variations of the age-old demonological phenomenon. p. 299.
Finally this gem from John Keel, on the top of page 306:
The Bible warns us that during "the last days" this planet will be overrun with wonders in the sky and false prophets and performers of miracles.
Could anyone else have said it any better?
Note: More John Keel quotes: UFOs Operation
Trojan Horse: some gems
Last revised: 19 Oct 2011.