DINOSAUR DISCUSSION 2
Where did the dinosaurs come from?
Were they part of the creation?
Were they bred by the antediluvians?
Audience: Young Earth Christians
So did God create the dinosaurs or did they come into existence some other way?
Continuing on from Discussion 1 we determined that the dinosaur fossils were not the remains from animals that were once living.
Problem 1 mentioned that fossils required a minimum of 10,000 years to form, from
https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/fossil/
So for a world only 6,000 years old the dinosaur fossils being dug up all around the world are not from dinosaurs that were once living.
They are something else.
Similarly Problem 2 investigated the problem [ignoring Problem 1] of getting all the fossils deposited in the last 6,000 years. Before the Flood didn't work especially if it had not previously rained.
Then for the Flood itself to find all the dinosaur fossils in the Mesozoic layers didn't work as the heaviest dinosaurs would be at the bottom and the lightest ones at the top.
Also allowing for very turbulent Flood waters depositing them any layers this simply extends to all fossils and all layers. In short a completely homogeneous geologic column distribution. In other words we should find T-rex fossils in EVERY layer, not just the Cretaceous.
We now look at some more problems: Nests, Eggs, Juvenile dinosaurs, and Dinosaur footprints.
Problem: Nests and Eggs
Dinosaur nests and eggs are found in different depositional layers. All around the world.[4] If it took a minimum of ten thousand years[1] for each of these layers to be formed, then they cannot have been formed at the time of the Flood.
Problem: Juvenile dinosaurs in nests
This one is a good problem for Christians believing in an old earth also.
Fossils of juvenile dinosaurs have been found in nests.[5]
If these fossils were formed from the action of water, then why are so many juvenile dinosaurs found in these nests?
Wouldn't they have swum out or been washed out?
Especially for the Flood with waters that were supposedly very turbulent and definitely would have washed any juvenile dinosaurs out of their nests?
And to use the argument that they were all the result of a land fall or collapse on to the nests?
For all of them? And for all of the juvenile dinosaurs?
It's like a staged crime scene. These nests with juvenile dinosaurs have been carefully constructed and placed for us to find and run with. That's the simplest way to say it.
Also as above, each layer with juvenile dinosaur fossils would have required a minimum of ten thousand years to form[1]. So again not possible from the Flood.
Interestingly, the author of the article discussing these juveniles mentions this problem:
But first let me observe that this obviously this is a case of rapid burial as their is little reason to believe that so many young dinosaurs of the same age would die in the same place and all oriented in the same direction in a nest under anything but unusual circumstances. But rapid burial doesn’t necessitate the jump to global flood. A watery death seems unlikely given that all 15 of these dinosaurs are in one nest, are of the same age (they didn’t just get washed there), and the sand grains of the rock they are embedded have the characteristics of sand dunes found today. A flood, whether placid or violent, would not be expected to result in this kind of preservation.[5]
Problem: Dinosaur footprints [6]
Same as nests and eggs. In many depositional layers all around the world. Again taking many years to form.[3] So not possible to have all been deposited at the time of the Flood.
Further I have seen a great photo of one rock layer completely exposed and in a near vertical position where paleontologists have to use ropes etc to navigate the rock face to investigate these footprints.
Near vertical and fully exposed?
Doesn't this seem a bit strange?
It's as if the Deity who placed this stuff in this position was saying something like, “Hey guys, what do you think of this?” or “I bet this will get their attention!” It certainly gets mine.
Conclusions as before
This just shows that none of this stuff is from animals that previously lived on this planet. The fossils of nests, eggs, juvenile dinosaurs, and footprints, are not from creatures that once were alive on this planet.
Again this strongly supports the premise that dinosaurs as living creatures never existed or walked on this planet at any time in the past.
And that dinosaur fossils are not the remains of living creatures. The dinosaur fossils being found all around the world are not fossil remains but something else. Fabrications or constructions? They are not fossil remains.
And just to quote that author again:
Irrespective of a watery or sandy death, the presence of a nest with juveniles in it presents a tremendous challenge to the global flood theory of creationists.[5]
Only if you believe they died this way from the Flood. Of course this fails the 10,000 year minimum test required for the fossils to form.[1] What it instead clearly shows is that these fossils had to be formed some other way, at the Creation point, and that none of these juvenile dinosaurs ever existed as living breathing creatures at any time in the past. They came into existence when this world came from the hand of God, fully formed as the paleontologists have found them, as fossils, not fossil remains, but fully constructed in these nests waiting for them to be dug up and shown to the world.
And we don't have to worry about the Washingtion CityPaper article “Do We Drink Dinosaur Urine?”[2]
with one of their queries
“The water coming out of your kitchen tap is four billion years old and might well have been sipped by a Tyrannosaurus rex!”
No T-rex ever walked on this planet at any time in the past. Or peed on it anywhere. Or left any footprints anywhere. Period
REFERENCES
1.
Fossil
Fossils are the preserved remains, or traces of remains, of ancient animals and plants.
Fossils are not the remains of the organism itself! They are rocks.
A fossil can preserve an entire organism or just part of one. Bones, shells, feathers, and leaves can all become fossils.
Fossils can be very large or very small. Microfossils are only visible with a microscope. Bacteria and pollen are microfossils. Macrofossils can be several meters long and weigh several tons. Macrofossils can be petrified trees or dinosaur bones.
Preserved remains become fossils if they reach an age of about 10,000 years.
https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/fossil/
2.
Do We Drink Dinosaur Urine?
I heard all the drinkable water on Earth has passed through dinosaur kidneys.
by Cecil Adams
August 3rd, 2016
https://washingtoncitypaper.com/article/195401/do-we-drink-dinosaur-urine/
3.
Types Of Sedimentary Rocks
There are two types of sedimentary rocks, referred to as either detritus or chemical.
Detritus Rocks
Detritus sedimentary rocks are formed when rock fragments, debris or sediments accumulate over time and can be either organic or inorganic in makeup. These detrital rocks come together under great pressure, usually over many years. The debris, or matter that form the rocks, can be either organic or inorganic.
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/how-are-sedimentary-rocks-formed.html
4.
many new nesting sites have been found all over the world ...
Dinosaur eggs are known from a variety of depositional environments.
Beach sands: Floodplains: Sand dunes:
One ancient beach deposit in northeastern Spain actually preserves about 300,000 fossil dinosaur eggs.
http://web.archive.org/web/20200727101303/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur_egg
5.
A nest of 15 young dinosaurs uncovered in Mongolia — cousins of Triceratops — now suggests these plant-eating beasts might have cared for their young, scientists reveal.
The dinosaur is named Protoceratops andrewsi, a sheep-size herbivore that lived about 70 million years ago that's known for the frill at the back of its head. Within the nest were infants about 4 to 6 inches (10 to 15 centimeters) long and probably no more than a year old.
https://news.yahoo.com/15-infant-dinosaurs-discovered-crowded-nest-161409482.html
We live in a new golden age of fossil discoveries. It seems that every week a new and dramatic fossil find is revealed. This fossil renaissance can be attributed to the opening up of new fossil sources, particularly China and Mongolia but also South America and to improved technology for retrieving and analyzing fossil remains. One such remarkable fossil find from Mongolia was reported in late 2011.* This find involved 15 complete or nearly complete fossils of juvenile dinosaurs all preserved in what was apparently a large 2-3 foot wide nest. That fossil find is described in a research paper which I have read. The paper: “A nest of Protoceratops andrewsi (Dinosauria, Ornithischia)” by Fastovsky et al. (2011 in the Journal of Paleontology Vol 85:1035-1041) described the evidence that these dinosaurs were juveniles, that they were all likely the same age and thus were of one brood and were all huddled in the same nest.
In 2011 when I wrote about these fossils I stated that I was sure that within days Answers in Genesis and other creationists would be claiming these fossils as obvious evidence of a global catastrophe. I was absolutely correct and will show you their response at the end. But first let me observe that this obviously this is a case of rapid burial as their is little reason to believe that so many young dinosaurs of the same age would die in the same place and all oriented in the same direction in a nest under anything but unusual circumstances. But rapid burial doesn’t necessitate the jump to global flood. A watery death seems unlikely given that all 15 of these dinosaurs are in one nest, are of the same age (they didn’t just get washed there), and the sand grains of the rock they are embedded have the characteristics of sand dunes found today. A flood, whether placid or violent, would not be expected to result in this kind of preservation.
Irrespective of a watery or sandy death, the presence of a nest with juveniles in it presents a tremendous challenge to the global flood theory of creationists.
https://thenaturalhistorian.com/2014/01/31/juvenile-dinosaurs-found-huddling-in-a-nest-a-local-or-global-catastrophe/
6.
Earth: The Science Behind the Headlines
Making Jurassic Tracks in the Jura
by Naomi Lubick
Tuesday, June 12, 2018
The footprints buried here came to light nearly a decade ago, when construction on the Transjurane Highway, meant to join Switzerland and France, unearthed layer upon layer of fossilized footprints. The Courtedoux tracksite, one of the first track-bearing layers uncovered in 2002, contains imprints made by multiple species of sauropods and tridactyls (three-digit bipeds, some of which are thought to be theropods), including herbivores and carnivores both large and small. Eventually, geologists identified more than 280 trackways, with footprints ranging from several centimeters to about a meter long that number in the thousands.
https://www.earthmagazine.org/article/making-jurassic-tracks-jura
Stephen Buckley
E-mail: chodesh [at] duck.com
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Constructed: 12 Aug 2024.
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