DINOSAUR DISCUSSION 2
Where did the dinosaurs come from?
Were they part of the creation?
Were they bred by the antediluvians?
Audience: Young Earth Christians
So did God create the dinosaurs or did they come into existence some other way?
Continuing on from Discussion 1 we determined that the dinosaur fossils were not the remains from animals that were once living.
Problem 1 mentioned that fossils required a minimum of 10,000 years to form, from
https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/fossil/
So for a world only 6,000 years old the dinosaur fossils being dug up all around the world are not from dinosaurs that were once living.
They are something else.
Similarly Problem 2 investigated the problem [ignoring Problem 1] of getting all the fossils deposited in the last 6,000 years. Before the Flood didn't work especially if it had not previously rained.
Then for the Flood itself to find all the dinosaur fossils in the Mesozoic layers didn't work as the heaviest dinosaurs would be at the bottom and the lightest ones at the top.
Also allowing for very turbulent Flood waters depositing them any layers this simply extends to all fossils and all layers. In short a completely homogeneous geologic column distribution. In other words we should find T-rex fossils in EVERY layer, not just the Cretaceous.
We now look at some more problems: Nests, Eggs, Juvenile dinosaurs, and Dinosaur footprints.
Problem: Nests and Eggs
Dinosaur nests and eggs are found in different depositional layers. All around the world.[4] If it took a minimum of ten thousand years[1] for each of these layers to be formed, then they cannot have been formed at the time of the Flood.
Problem: Juvenile dinosaurs in nests
This one is a good problem for Christians believing in an old earth also.
Fossils of juvenile dinosaurs have been found in nests.[5]
If these fossils were formed from the action of water, then why are so many juvenile dinosaurs found in these nests?
Wouldn't they have swum out or been washed out?
Especially for the Flood with waters that were supposedly very turbulent and definitely would have washed any juvenile dinosaurs out of their nests?
And to use the argument that they were all the result of a land fall or collapse on to the nests?
For all of them? And for all of the juvenile dinosaurs?
It's like a staged crime scene. These nests with juvenile dinosaurs have been carefully constructed and placed for us to find and run with. That's the simplest way to say it.
Also as above, each layer with juvenile dinosaur fossils would have required a minimum of ten thousand years to form[1]. So again not possible from the Flood.
Interestingly, the author of the article discussing these juveniles mentions this problem:
But first let me observe that this obviously this is a case of rapid burial as their is little reason to believe that so many young dinosaurs of the same age would die in the same place and all oriented in the same direction in a nest under anything but unusual circumstances. But rapid burial doesn’t necessitate the jump to global flood. A watery death seems unlikely given that all 15 of these dinosaurs are in one nest, are of the same age (they didn’t just get washed there), and the sand grains of the rock they are embedded have the characteristics of sand dunes found today. A flood, whether placid or violent, would not be expected to result in this kind of preservation.[5]
Problem: Dinosaur footprints [6]
Same as nests and eggs. In many depositional layers all around the world. Again taking many years to form.[3] So not possible to have all been deposited at the time of the Flood.
Further I have seen a great photo of one rock layer completely exposed and in a near vertical position where paleontologists have to use ropes etc to navigate the rock face to investigate these footprints.[7]
Near vertical and fully exposed?
Doesn't this seem a bit strange?
It's as if the Deity who placed this stuff in this position was saying something like, “Hey guys, what do you think of this?” or “I bet this will get their attention!” It certainly gets mine.
2024 October update
OK just been perusing youtube again [a lot of crazy stuff there] and ran into an interesting site mentioning The Mud Problem.
The person here was making a claim that sedimentation to rocks would take too long to form rock layers from the Flood. Not having a problem with that but it was the amount of time that they were stating. Some comments:
"even at ten thousand years later it's still a very thick sludge"
"because everything is Muddy you cannot leave a trackway. It's not physically possible to do so"
"you can't even get full consolidation of the Labrador sea in one hundred years as proposed in Dunn's own experiments which that is what is minimally required for leaving footprints behind like the status of a soft clay so how are you going to explain just oodles and oodles and oodles of dinosaur trackways?"
"consolidation times for 1000m-thick clay layers are in the order of millions of years"
OK this may be a bit mixed up as the speaker is basically referring to rock layers forming from the Flood. And requiring millions of years[8] again we have an answer, It ain't possible. All these rock layers came into existence at some other time. As previously stated it doesn't leave too many options. If we only have 6000 years to play with then the only possibility left is the creation point. It's that simple.
BUT
what I find interesting here is that the supposition of having sloppy mud DOESN'T make possible ANY trackways!!
AND
If a hundred years is the minimal time required for consolidation to get footprints I think the evolutionists are facing an impossible situation also. Even allowing for millions or billions of years they still can't get them! So just where did they come from? Just what sort of non-existent creatures made them? Clearly something that is not of this world. In short, they really have their work cut out for them too!
AND
A near vertical rock face?
AND
Fully exposed?
Don't even ask.
As I said, the Deity that did this must be sitting back laughing, "I wonder what they'll think of this one!"
Nuff said.
Conclusions as before
This just shows that none of this stuff is from animals that previously lived on this planet. The fossils of nests, eggs, juvenile dinosaurs, and footprints, are not from creatures that once were alive on this planet.
Again this strongly supports the premise that dinosaurs as living creatures never existed or walked on this planet at any time in the past.
And that dinosaur fossils are not the remains of living creatures. The dinosaur fossils being found all around the world are not fossil remains but something else. Fabrications or constructions? They are not fossil remains.
And just to quote that author again:
Irrespective of a watery or sandy death, the presence of a nest with juveniles in it presents a tremendous challenge to the global flood theory of creationists.[5]
Only if you believe they died this way from the Flood. Of course this fails the 10,000 year minimum test required for the fossils to form.[1] And the order of millions of years for individual rock layers to form.[8] What all this clearly shows is that these fossils had to be formed some other way, at the Creation point, and that none of these juvenile dinosaurs ever existed as living breathing creatures at any time in the past. They came into existence when this world came from the hand of God, fully formed as the paleontologists have found them, as fossils, not fossil remains, but fully constructed in these nests waiting for them to be dug up and shown to the world.
And we don't have to worry about the Washingtion CityPaper article “Do We Drink Dinosaur Urine?”[2]
with one of their queries
“The water coming out of your kitchen tap is four billion years old and might well have been sipped by a Tyrannosaurus rex!”
No T-rex ever walked on this planet at any time in the past. Or peed on it anywhere. Or left any footprints anywhere. Period
REFERENCES
1.
Fossil
Fossils are the preserved remains, or traces of remains, of ancient animals and plants.
Fossils are not the remains of the organism itself! They are rocks.
A fossil can preserve an entire organism or just part of one. Bones, shells, feathers, and leaves can all become fossils.
Fossils can be very large or very small. Microfossils are only visible with a microscope. Bacteria and pollen are microfossils. Macrofossils can be several meters long and weigh several tons. Macrofossils can be petrified trees or dinosaur bones.
Preserved remains become fossils if they reach an age of about 10,000 years.
https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/fossil/
2.
Do We Drink Dinosaur Urine?
I heard all the drinkable water on Earth has passed through dinosaur kidneys.
by Cecil Adams
August 3rd, 2016
https://washingtoncitypaper.com/article/195401/do-we-drink-dinosaur-urine/
3.
Types Of Sedimentary Rocks
There are two types of sedimentary rocks, referred to as either detritus or chemical.
Detritus Rocks
Detritus sedimentary rocks are formed when rock fragments, debris or sediments accumulate over time and can be either organic or inorganic in makeup. These detrital rocks come together under great pressure, usually over many years. The debris, or matter that form the rocks, can be either organic or inorganic.
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/how-are-sedimentary-rocks-formed.html
4.
many new nesting sites have been found all over the world ...
Dinosaur eggs are known from a variety of depositional environments.
Beach sands: Floodplains: Sand dunes:
One ancient beach deposit in northeastern Spain actually preserves about 300,000 fossil dinosaur eggs.
http://web.archive.org/web/20200727101303/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur_egg
5.
A nest of 15 young dinosaurs uncovered in Mongolia — cousins of Triceratops — now suggests these plant-eating beasts might have cared for their young, scientists reveal.
The dinosaur is named Protoceratops andrewsi, a sheep-size herbivore that lived about 70 million years ago that's known for the frill at the back of its head. Within the nest were infants about 4 to 6 inches (10 to 15 centimeters) long and probably no more than a year old.
https://news.yahoo.com/15-infant-dinosaurs-discovered-crowded-nest-161409482.html
We live in a new golden age of fossil discoveries. It seems that every week a new and dramatic fossil find is revealed. This fossil renaissance can be attributed to the opening up of new fossil sources, particularly China and Mongolia but also South America and to improved technology for retrieving and analyzing fossil remains. One such remarkable fossil find from Mongolia was reported in late 2011.* This find involved 15 complete or nearly complete fossils of juvenile dinosaurs all preserved in what was apparently a large 2-3 foot wide nest. That fossil find is described in a research paper which I have read. The paper: “A nest of Protoceratops andrewsi (Dinosauria, Ornithischia)” by Fastovsky et al. (2011 in the Journal of Paleontology Vol 85:1035-1041) described the evidence that these dinosaurs were juveniles, that they were all likely the same age and thus were of one brood and were all huddled in the same nest.
In 2011 when I wrote about these fossils I stated that I was sure that within days Answers in Genesis and other creationists would be claiming these fossils as obvious evidence of a global catastrophe. I was absolutely correct and will show you their response at the end. But first let me observe that this obviously this is a case of rapid burial as their is little reason to believe that so many young dinosaurs of the same age would die in the same place and all oriented in the same direction in a nest under anything but unusual circumstances. But rapid burial doesn’t necessitate the jump to global flood. A watery death seems unlikely given that all 15 of these dinosaurs are in one nest, are of the same age (they didn’t just get washed there), and the sand grains of the rock they are embedded have the characteristics of sand dunes found today. A flood, whether placid or violent, would not be expected to result in this kind of preservation.
Irrespective of a watery or sandy death, the presence of a nest with juveniles in it presents a tremendous challenge to the global flood theory of creationists.
https://thenaturalhistorian.com/2014/01/31/juvenile-dinosaurs-found-huddling-in-a-nest-a-local-or-global-catastrophe/
6.
Earth: The Science Behind the Headlines
Making Jurassic Tracks in the Jura
by Naomi Lubick
Tuesday, June 12, 2018
The footprints buried here came to light nearly a decade ago, when construction on the Transjurane Highway, meant to join Switzerland and France, unearthed layer upon layer of fossilized footprints. The Courtedoux tracksite, one of the first track-bearing layers uncovered in 2002, contains imprints made by multiple species of sauropods and tridactyls (three-digit bipeds, some of which are thought to be theropods), including herbivores and carnivores both large and small. Eventually, geologists identified more than 280 trackways, with footprints ranging from several centimeters to about a meter long that number in the thousands.
https://www.earthmagazine.org/article/making-jurassic-tracks-jura
7.
Keeping track(s) of time: Thousands of footprints left by dinosaurs 68 million years ago found on a steep vertical rock face
There are 462 trails of 5,055 prints on a vertical limestone slab in Bolivia
Landslides have exposed trails of dinosaur footprints running along a near-vertical rock face in Bolivia.
The attraction, at Fancesa limestone quarry in Sucre, comprises some 462 trails made up of 5,055 prints - and frequent landslides reveal new ones, some of which belong to unknown species.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3062345/Keeping-track-s-time-Footprints-left-dinosaurs-68-million-years-ago-steep-vertical-rock-face.html
'We were freaking out': Scientists left 'flabbergasted' by detailed dinosaur footprints covering a cliff in Alaska
News
By Harry Baker published August 18, 2023
A 20-story rock face in Alaska known as "The Coliseum" is covered with layers of footprints belonging to a range of dinosaurs, including a tyrannosaur.
The cliff face, known as "The Coliseum," in Denali National Park and Preserve. Its surface is covered in fossilized dinosaur tracks.
"Flabbergasted" researchers have discovered that the face of a 20-story cliff in Alaska is covered in the fossilized footprints of dozens of dinosaurs, giving the impression that the creatures defied gravity to walk across its surface, ...
The rock face, located in Denali National Park and Preserve, currently stands around 218 feet (66 meters)
https://www.livescience.com/animals/dinosaurs/we-were-freaking-out-scientists-left-flabbergasted-by-detailed-dinosaur-footprints-covering-a-cliff-in-alaska
Paleontologists climbing a rock face to measure dinosaur tracks up close...
See
Dinosaurs Inside & Out - Ep 2, Land of the Giants (1997)
From 11:30 onwards but 15:27 gives a great view!
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:20170806_Bolivia_1268_Sucre_sRGB_(24128480908).jpg
Dinosaur tracks. ... nearly a vertical surface ...
Cretaceous Park (aka Dinosaur Park) is the largest collection of dinosaur footprints in the world—around 5,000 tracks made by at least eight species of dinosaurs (including a baby Tyrannosaurus Rex).
Attribution: Dan Lundberg
This file is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic license.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:20170806_Bolivia_1262_crop_Sucre_sRGB_(24128482958).jpg
dinosaur footprints. These are from a sauropod. What is nearly a vertical surface ...
Cretaceous Park (aka Dinosaur Park) is the largest collection of dinosaur footprints in the world—around 5,000 tracks made by at least eight species of dinosaurs (including a baby Tyrannosaurus Rex).
Attribution: Dan Lundberg
This file is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic license.
8.
OK an amendment on this. From a youtube video[9] referring to a doc by Scott Dunn about clay depositions says something like "Basic soil mechanics shows that consolidation times for 1000 m-thick clay layers are in the order of millions of years".
So a conclusion is that each rock layer may have taken millions of years to go from sediment to solid rock. That may not be completely correct.
Scott Dunn was discussing clay layers with a lot of water and it was taking a LOT of time for the water to drain out. Also the millions of years time is for 1000 m thick clay layers.
So layers that are not formed from clay and a lot less than 1000 m thick may take a lot less time.
Sure, still a lot of time but maybe less than a million years.
What got me on this track is realizing a lot of megafauna have been found from the Late Pleistocene which supposedly covers between c. 129,000 and c. 11,700 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Pleistocene
Anyway if a lot of fossils have been found from Late Pleistocene rock layers, then these layers couldn't have taken millions of years to form.
Anyway the National Geographic quote suggests that fossils take a minimum of 10,000 years to form so we can take that as possibly the minimum rock layer formation time. [using natural processes of course]
Just some thoughts.
9.
The Mud Problem Precludes Young Earth Creationism
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQcQSqH13xU
Gutsick Gibbon
OK not endorsing this site but there is a lot of interesting stuff here.
Note: this site is very much against a Creation 6000 years ago.
Stephen Buckley
E-mail: chodesh [at] duck.com
Last revised: 23 Oct 2024.
Constructed: 12 Aug 2024.
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